the HRD talks
Nic Elliott, employment lawyer at Actons talks to HR Directors and People Directors about their journey into HR, gets their insights into current trends in the world of work and takes their advice on the future of HR and how HR professionals can deliver value and progress their careers.
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LI: The HRD Talks | Podcast
the HRD talks
Jan Lynegar, Director of Talent Acquisition and Organisational Development at Marston's PLC
In this episode of the HRD Talks podcast, host Nic Elliott interviews Jan Lynegar, Director of Talent Acquisition and Organisational Development at Marston's PLC.
Jan shares her unique career journey, which began with aspirations to become a legal officer in the military. After transitioning to employment law, she eventually found her way into HR, holding significant roles at DFS, Lookers, Ralph Lauren, and now Marston's PLC. Throughout her career, Jan faced numerous challenges, including a battle with anxiety and depression, and a cancer diagnosis, which profoundly impacted her personal and professional life.
Jan discusses her evolution from employment law to HR business partnering, emphasising the importance of understanding business models and strategic thinking. At Marston's, her role involves talent acquisition, organisational development, and driving cultural evolution within the company. She highlights the challenges faced by the hospitality industry, such as negative media headlines and rising costs, while also underscoring the importance of pubs in British culture. Marston's commitment to growth and innovation, along with a focus on people, culture, and engagement, is crucial for attracting and retaining top talent.
Leadership and mental health are central themes in the conversation. Jan explains how leadership can significantly impact employee mental health and business performance. She advocates for vulnerability and authenticity in leadership, stressing the need for workplace policies that support employees during significant life events. Jan also offers advice for HR professionals, emphasising the importance of working in businesses where HR has a strategic role and the need for continuous learning and understanding of broader business and market trends. She believes in balancing commercial success with employee well-being.
The discussion also touches on upcoming legislation and industry challenges, particularly the Employment Rights Bill and third-party harassment in hospitality. Jan shares Marston's involvement in the "It Stops With Me" campaign, which aims to address harassment in the industry.
We hope you enjoy this episode!
Supplier shout-out: The Burnt Chef Project
Jan’s LinkedIn: Jan Lynegar | LinkedIn
Nic’s LinkedIn: Nic Elliott | LinkedIn
The HRD Talks is brought to you by Actons. For more information on our podcast please visit our website.
So welcome to this episode of the HRD Talks podcast, where we talk with HR directors and people directors about their journey into HR. We get their insight into current trends in the world of work and take their advice on the future of HR and how HR professionals can deliver value and progress their career. I'm Nick Elliott, employment lawyer. I'm really excited to welcome Jan Lineger, who is wait for it. Director of Talent Acquisition and Organisational Development at Marston's PLC.
Jan Lynegar:Well done. It's a bit of a comedy title.
Nic Elliott:I've tried my best with it and I got there.
Jan Lynegar:It does all have some meaning behind it. I promise there's a method in the madness.
Nic Elliott:Absolutely Well. We'll hear more about that as we go through. Let's start at the very beginning. Hear more about that as we go through. Let's start at the very beginning. We've known each other a little while, but tell us about how you got into HR, whether HR was a thing for you at the very beginning your career journey.
Jan Lynegar:I never really considered a career in HR. I went to law school. I wanted to be a legal officer in the military.
Nic Elliott:Excellent choice.
Jan Lynegar:I never really fit in at school but I found my place. When I joined the cadet forces was about 13. And I loved the lifestyle. I loved it. I watched a few good men a lot and I thought that's me, that's my career sorted. So I went to law school. I continued in the Reserve Forces while I was at university and in the second year of my degree I was told by the Armed Forces Careers Place that the bill was being introduced for tri-service consolidation of service law in line with civilian law, because there'd been quite a gap historically. But basically what it meant for me was that a bunch of civilians would be working from an office in London if the bill went through, so they weren't recruiting for legal officers in case that happened. So I had to have a rethink and during my post-grad in legal practice I actually specialised in employment law and I loved it.
Jan Lynegar:Don't know why he would make a career and, whilst qualifying, my path crossed with a mutual friend of ours, uh, mr andy stevenson, and who's also been absolutely guest of the podcast.
Jan Lynegar:Yeah, andy was the hr director at dfs at the time.
Jan Lynegar:Um, and I went to work for them looking after all things employee relations and employment law so I looked after tribunals and doing that in a commercial business was actually much more financially attractive than being a junior solicitor at the time. Role at DFS did sit in the HR team. At that point I couldn't really have told you what a HR function did in a business other than those usual assumptions around compliance, contracts, paying people. And not long after I started with DFS we were actually purchased by a big PE company and I remember sitting in Andy's office and him talking to me about you know, we've got to drive really significant cultural change and we've. You know we've got to do a five-year plan and we need to improve ways of working and grow the business. And I was an employment lawyer and I was sat there thinking I've got no HR qualifications and I just remember sitting there thinking I don't know what you're talking about, but somewhere in that conversation he seemed to be offering me a new job with more money and a car.
Jan Lynegar:So, I kept listening and he wanted to trial something called business partnering. He said that he wanted me to test it out for him, and so I said yes. And then when I got home, I spent three hours on Google Googling what is a HR business partner, what do HR business partners do? And that was really the start of my generalist journey in HR, and five years later I'd been in the really privileged position of rolling out the business partner function across DFS and supporting Andy with leading some huge transformational change initiatives in what was a fully integrated business. So it exposed me to everything from design, production, sales, logistics and all the head office functions.
Jan Lynegar:It was a baptism of fire, that is for sure, and I didn't truly understand, I think, at the time, or appreciate the value of the foundation that I was building, because for me that was just what HR did and what HR was, and I've only ever known HR in that capacity, which is a far cry from the hire and fire kind of mindset yeah that I'd had five years previously to that and I think a lot of people still hold now.
Jan Lynegar:I'd always wanted to move to London and have some time living in London and I think after we delivered the five-year plan and the flotation of the business, I was definitely ready for a new challenge. So I started looking at roles. But what I didn't know is that Andy was obviously ready for a new challenge as well, and he had moved to Lookers. So he asked me to go there with him to support the delivery of change projects there. And it was a great couple of years for my development. Moving into a new business DFS was all I'd ever known, so it was great to understand a different business model and to see the value that we could add quite quickly to their people opportunities, given our learnings that we'd had from the transformational work we'd done previously. But I'd still got one eye on London and I loved retail. I'd always been in retail and I wanted to work in fashion. Yeah, I loved fashion, although the jumper that I'm wearing today might suggest otherwise. We've already poked fun at that.
Nic Elliott:We've had that chat.
Jan Lynegar:And so when the dream job came up, I couldn't miss the boat. Ralph Lauren was just a great experience. It gave me exposure to a global business, international travel and so many opportunities to leverage my change management experience and to add a lot of value. I learned an awful lot about, again another business model which is great for business acumen and really built on my commercial and strategic thinking.
Jan Lynegar:After, I would say, a year or so in London, I had what I think I can only describe as the most difficult year of my life. I had a battle with anxiety and depression previously during my time at DFS, and Andy had been incredibly supportive. I learned a lot about myself through therapy, personal development, and I was probably naive enough to think that I'd got my coping strategies in place and that I was in control, but nothing really could have prepared me for the year that I faced.
Jan Lynegar:Amazing sister lost her wonderful mum to cancer and then I was diagnosed with early stage cervical cancer which required multiple treatments and operations. All this whilst living alone, isolated from my family and my friends, in a city, and I just didn't have the support network in place really, and that took a real toll on my mental health. It was definitely the hardest time of my life and it nearly cost me my life, but with the right help and the right support from my amazing friends and family, it really became a turning point for me, I think when I reflect now, it seems so obvious that I ended up so unwell because I was in huge conflict with my values. I was prioritising my career over everything, over family, over my health, and I hated myself for not being there for my family during that time. And when I got my diagnosis, it was just the cherry on top.
Jan Lynegar:The operation that followed. They then discovered that I suffered with endometriosis, and it left me with a lot to digest about my future fertility. So I was so emotionally overwhelmed and I made the decision to stop chasing happiness through job titles and pay packets. I moved back to Derbyshire to be with the people that I love, and that's how I ended up at Marston's Liam who's. Our group, hrd, was looking for a head of business partnering. I was looking for a role and a business culture that would enable me to add value at work whilst I was having that balance that I knew now that I wanted for my personal life, which was to actually have a personal life. Um, and I've been at Marsden's now for five years, yeah, um. My roles evolved a lot, from business partner into talent and organization, as we know from the comedy title Um, and, and I absolutely love it.
Nic Elliott:I love it? Yep, and. And so what day to day? What does that role involve now?
Jan Lynegar:so I think what's really important is that to note is that the hospitality industry is evolving really quickly. I think it's always been seen as a little bit behind the curve, but you know, marston's is a great business. I actually worked in a local marston's okay um, my local marston's pub.
Jan Lynegar:Shout out to the greyhound at Higham, um, which is a great pub. Uh, I worked there while I was at college, yeah, and it's. It's really interesting in hospitality at the moment because it's getting a really bad rep. It's got a really shaky reputation. There's an awful lot of negative media headlines, rising costs, impact of budget. You know, pub closures is all you seem to hear about and yet the sentiment at Marston's couldn't be further from that yeah you know, pubs are really truly at the heart of British society and they hold a really special place in our culture.
Jan Lynegar:I don't know if that's just because I love being in a pub, both from a work perspective and socially, but there's just so many exciting things happening in our space and it's a vibrant industry. It continues to be. Everyone said it was the death of the british pub when the smoking ban was introduced and just, we've proven to be so resilient and at marston's we are investing in our pubs. You know, we're evolving digitally, we're adapting, we're delivering on all of our commitments and our growth plans and it's a really energizing place to be. What makes it even more exciting for me as a people leader is that hospitality is really truly all about its people, because it has to be.
Jan Lynegar:Yeah, it's the people that makes the pubs really what they are. It's the people there that create that atmosphere, bring the energy and create that environment for so many people and deliver those moments that really matter to the people that that visit there, and with the people being such an integral part of our business success, you know we have to be continuously evolving our culture to make sure that we are engaging people, we're rewarding people and we're focusing on personal development that really attracts and retains the best people. So, like most senior leaders, our focuses really are on that attraction, that retention of top performers and thinking really against the backdrop of talent shortages that we've got in this country. How are we continuing to evolve to make sure that we are attractive, but also to make sure that we are attractive, but also to make sure that we are?
Jan Lynegar:we've got the talent that we need in our business in order to deliver everything that we need to, and that is why my roles evolved to yeah the fun title that it is now, because I think a huge part of continuing to develop that culture is evolving recruitment away from a tactical function and reactive function to focusing way more strategically on talent and by working in close proximity with our business leaders around business priorities and transformation initiatives.
Jan Lynegar:It allows me to work really closely with our senior leadership and understand what structure and talent needs do we have and do we need to have in order to achieve our corporate goals. Are we equipped to deliver those strategic objectives and then to help and support them with those change initiatives? So, whether that is structural evolution, it's a talent need or it's changes to ways of working through collaboration systems, ai, automation. Really, it's all about being a bit disruptive, which, as you know, is in my nature, and staying ahead of the trends and and best practice so that we're really making sure that we're we're growing a culture of continuous improvement and evolution so that we are operating our business as well as we possibly can.
Nic Elliott:And staying competitive. Yeah it's.
Jan Lynegar:It sounds like a really wide-ranging role, as in you must get involved in a lot of different aspects of the business absolutely, and and I love that because it's it's so much broader than understanding just hr, because in order to have a really strategic conversation with our cfo or you, you know our IT director, about the shape of their team and their organisation, the talent that they need, you have to know not just what we're doing inside our business but what's going on externally in order to coach through a conversation that can be a little bit, you know, disruptive and not pokey, but challenging.
Jan Lynegar:You know, we're all working at a million miles an hour as leaders in businesses and you know we don't get the time to step off the hamster wheel and really reflect and really think. And part of my role is to create that space for our leaders in our business um and to encourage them to think outside of the box, think about the art of the possible and then help deliver that yeah, and I enjoy talking to you about your views around um culture and the way that leaders set that and can influence it.
Jan Lynegar:Talk, talk about how you approach that stuff I think how we, particularly how, as leaders, we view and manage change is becoming more and more important. I think we live in a world of incredibly fast-paced and continuous change, and we can't ignore that as businesses, we can't live in a bubble or on an island and go all this change that's happening in the world, we're just going to yeah, we're not bothered by that.
Jan Lynegar:We're just going to sit over here and carry on doing things the way that we've always done them because it feels really comfortable. And for years, businesses have talked about change fatigue, and that's an absolute thing. By the way, I agree that it's really real, as humans, we're not robots and we can't ignore millions of years of evolution, that our brains have got a certain level of capacity to absorb change, and just because a really senior, senior leader wants everything done yesterday, it doesn't change that evolution, unfortunately. And so I'm asking myself all the time, as a leader, if we know that high volume and fast paced change is inevitable and it's a constant and we can't ignore it in order to remain agile and remain competitive. How do we balance that with the very real reality that we are humans and we have teams of of humans and we have a finite capacity for change, and I think resilience is really really being stretched, and I think part of that is is just really poor leadership okay um in in a lot of businesses.
Jan Lynegar:I think if, as leaders, we're running off in silo, focusing on ticking off all the things on our objective list, the business and its people suffer. I think if we're not being collaborative and coordinating the change that needs to be delivered in a business, then it's very, very easy for that working environment to start to feel chaotic, multiple, conflicting priorities. It quickly leads to overwhelm and burnout and I think culturally it's really dangerous and I honestly believe that as senior people, leaders, you know we have to keep in mind the impact on our teams of that high volume change. I mean there's a commercial and a human element, right? So the human element is that prolonged impact of overwhelm and burnout and the impact that has on people's mental health.
Jan Lynegar:Um, and the way that when your work environment feels like that, that creeps into your personal life, which is inevitable and can be really debilitating, and then, even if you're a little bit emotionally constipated and a corporate monster who doesn't really care about people, even then you can't ignore the impact because it affects business results. So you aren't going to get the best out of a human being who is struggling emotionally and it's going to impact people's ability to perform and it's going to impact the performance of the business. So culture and environment is just so important. It's entirely leader-led. We just have such a huge impact on people's emotional state and I don't always think that responsibility is talked about as much as it should be. There's definitely studies out there that I've read that say that and suggest that leaders have as much of an impact on people's emotional health as their spouse because you spend so much time at work and you're so dependent for financial security and lots of other reasons on on their relationship with that leader.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, I honestly believe that poor mental health can be really badly perpetuated by poor leadership yeah, and so useful reminder to us all in terms of then addressing that and helping leaders with it. What would you kind of suggest as good advice to avoid those situations?
Jan Lynegar:I think I think part of its legacy, I think part of it is generationally.
Jan Lynegar:There are people that still believe that you've got to have this veneer of perfectionism as a leader and that you're made from different gravy granules that don't crumble in hot water and you can cope with anything. And it's unrealistic and it's not attainable. And I think that by portraying that as leaders, you're damaging the resilience of the team that you lead, and a resilience that's increasingly important in an ever-changing world. And I think when leaders acknowledge their own vulnerability, they're demonstrating that it's okay for things to be difficult, it's okay for things to be hard, and it normalizes being human and having feelings, which in turn, enhances your ability to connect with your team. It builds trust, it builds, it builds rapport, it improves communication, all of which are essential if you're going to support your people effectively. And there's you know there's training. Of course. You can go on a course and you can understand the signs of burnout and overwhelm and you can look for those and you can know what to do, but that's treating the symptom, not the cause.
Nic Elliott:Yeah.
Jan Lynegar:And actually the cause is the environment that the people are in, and I think if you can create a safe space as a leader where your people feel comfortable to come to you and to communicate really openly, that's critical, and I also believe that we have a responsibility to role model the right behaviors.
Jan Lynegar:You know we spoke earlier about business leaders sending emails at 11 o'clock at night, and what does that say to your team about? If they want to advance their career, if they want to grow in the organization, what might be expected of them in terms of work-life balance? And I'm sure it isn't people's intention, because nobody well, some people maybe, but most people you would like to think don't sit there at 11 o'clock and expect a response from the person on the other at the end. But it's the perception that matters and I think we have to lead by example, and that's not just about the way that we operate in the workplace and our own working practices, but our own self-care practices. And the only other real thing that we can do as leaders, I think, is advocate for those workplace policies that do yeah, talk to me about that, because you're right in saying it was interesting.
Nic Elliott:We talked briefly before about the fact that actually you advocate for some structures, some policies to protect people in organizations, almost when actually the shift in in a in the hr world for a little while has been oh, we need fewer policies, we need, you know, less of that that restricts people.
Jan Lynegar:But I think you're actually coming at it from a much more positive perspective I think, I think advocating for those positive policies, those policies that legislate for poor leadership. Because because you can be in an organization where the culture is amazing and everything is amazing, but if you are in part of that organisation that has got a bad leader, a bad line manager, then you don't feel that great culture and if you don't have those workplace policies in place to drive that consistency, then the impact of how key life events are handled by your line manager is down to chance and down to luck and that feels unfair.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, so what? What kind of things are you talking about?
Jan Lynegar:so I think, well, a great example. I read an article earlier this month in, I'm allowed to say, the bbc. Is that like?
Jan Lynegar:there are other channels available where a a woman had gone back to work um three days after a miscarriage because there was no policy around the time that could be taken. I think I know that the foundation of infant and baby loss. They were talking on the article and they were saying that one in four people experience baby loss and around 3.5 million working people currently are undergoing fertility challenges and treatment, and I think it's really important that we are legislating for the support that needs to be in place. I was horrified to read that story and then to learn that the woman had gone back to work and her three days off had been recorded as sick leave. I mean, currently legislation only accounts for people that lose a baby after 24 weeks being entitled to paid leave, and I know there are conversations in Parliament at the moment to extend this, which is absolutely the right thing to do. But do we really need legislation to force a hand, to be human and to support people in the way that they deserve to be supported? And I think, as leaders, we should just be doing the right thing anyway.
Jan Lynegar:And it just it doesn't just impact women, you know. It impacts their partners that are facing the same challenges. You know, without clarity of how much time is okay. You end up with partners back at work and in business meetings. You know days after and not being able to provide the support, not being able to grieve themselves but not being able to provide the support. Not being able to grieve themselves but not being able to provide the support for their partners that they desperately want to. So I think for me, when I talk about advocating for policies, this is what I mean.
Nic Elliott:It's about advocating for policies that legislate for poor leadership yeah, and and it's interesting hearing you talking about that because I think sometimes there's this tension, isn't there, between, like commercial hr people who get stuff done and you know, understand the business and drive profit and all this kind of stuff, and and hr people who care about the people too and and I know, having known you a while, you're definitely for commercial, um, you know success of an organization, but clearly you have, you know you hold that tension well, in the sense that it's also important to look after people because the two aren't mutually exclusive yeah and and it's to my, I think it's to the point I made a little bit earlier, which is that there's the human element and there's the business element.
Jan Lynegar:But you can't detach the two because, ultimately, business performance is down to people's choices that they make when they show up to work. It's the discretionary efforts, the engagement, it's their, it's their desire to want to succeed for themselves and for the business. And if they are not being looked after by that business and by that leader, why should they? And you know I'm very, very fortunate, you know I I work for a great organization and I have a great boss. And if I had a big life event, you know if I decided, I know if I decide to have children, it's going to be a journey. You know it's going to mean time off. It's going to mean flexibility. It's going to mean flexibility.
Jan Lynegar:It's going to mean, you know, treatment and hormones and emotions that that's going to mean I need the support of a great business and a great boss and I'm fortunate.
Nic Elliott:But it's not universal yeah, absolutely, really, really interesting. Thanks for being well being so open about it as well. You've obviously had a varied career lots of different organizations, businesses and clearly you've picked up a lot along the way. Obviously the employment law start out I'm sure helped too. Um, if you were starting again, or for people that are listening, that are starting their HR career, what would your advice be to them?
Jan Lynegar:I think find a business where HR has got a seat at the table and a real seat at the table, not ticking a box around an exec for compliance um, not viewed as a cost center the way I used to view it before I actually um got into HR as a career I think you won't get the exposure to the real value-add stuff. I think that the compliance stuff, with the way that AI and automation and technology is moving forward, it's going to be able to be done by other means and where we add value as people, professionals, is the human element, which is the part that really matters and that's the strategy, it's the transformation, it's understanding people and human behavior and knowing how to adapt within a business in order to capitalize on the people that work there to deliver what we need to from a business perspective. And you won't get exposure to that type of work if you're operating in a business that doesn't value its people function yeah, yeah, that's got to be right?
Nic Elliott:and what about the other end of the, the career ladder? Should we say for those senior people out there yeah, I think a lot of what I've.
Jan Lynegar:I do now in the sense of focusing on understanding business at a broader level. I think if you're a senior person in your organization, you know your organization. I do now in the sense of focusing on understanding business at a broader level. I think if you're a senior person in your organization, you know your organization and if you're a senior person in HR as a head of, you've got background in fundamentals of HR. For me, I think taking that next step is about looking outside. It's about understanding broader organization, understanding the market, understanding. You know, yes, your business has commercial opportunities, but what are other businesses doing? Because if you want to contribute to higher levels of decision-making, you need to understand that.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, and talking of outside of your business, we have something called the supplier shout out on the podcast. So your chance to, I guess, big up an organisation that you've worked with or a supplier that you would recommend to people Anybody come to mind.
Jan Lynegar:Definitely so. It won't be a surprise given what I've talked about today, about how passionate I am around mental health in the workplace. I think we partner with a not-for-profit organisation called the Burnt Chef. They build capability of line managers and employees in hospitality by providing training that really enhances awareness around mental health and it really opens up the conversation and breaks down the stigma. They've also got structures in place that help people that might be struggling with their mental health and their founder, chris, who I know really well, is a really good guy. He is immersed in the hospitality industry. He knows it through and through and he's seen firsthand the impact around mental health struggles for himself, for his, his friends, his clients. They do absolutely amazing work and I would recommend them to anyone in the hospitality industry. Everybody should be working with them fab.
Nic Elliott:We'll give them a big shout out. That's great. There was one final thing that I wanted to ask you about, because I think it's particularly challenging for your sector, and that's partly in my world legislation that's coming down the track. So we have the Employment Rights Bill, which I'm trying not to talk to everybody about, despite the fact that it's on, you know, a lot of people's agenda, and I know it is yours. One of the things that I've, you know, seen as particularly challenging for hospitality is the provisions that are being proposed around third party harassment. How do you view that?
Jan Lynegar:I think it's difficult because there's two elements to this. So there's how we're handling it as an organisation. So we've joined the it Stops With Me campaign alongside a number of other leading partners across retail and hospitality, which is a pledge really to continue significant impact on somebody's emotional health and mental health at work, and something that's really important to me is that we're always managing and that we're always doing our best to mitigate against. I think the flip side of that and the challenging side of this legislation is that businesses are being asked to legislate for the behaviour of the general public and that becomes quite difficult.
Jan Lynegar:Businesses are being asked to legislate for the behaviour of the general public. Yeah, and that becomes quite difficult. Yeah, you know we would absolutely, and our masters, do everything within our power to protect our people. But how do you control the general public? Would be the question. And we can after the fact. You know absolutely. If something were to happen, you know we would, we would take steps and those individuals would not be welcome in in our pubs and bars. But how do you prevent it in the first place is a.
Nic Elliott:It's an interesting question yeah, yeah, no, I agree, and it's interesting to hear your view on it. Thank you, so I think we're nearing the end of our time together I feel like that's gone really fast, but is that? Just because I've done lots of talking. You've talked brilliantly throughout and, yeah, again I wanted to say thank you for being so open, being quite vulnerable about a number of topics. I think it's been really really interesting and really valuable and, yeah, thank you so much.
Jan Lynegar:Thank you for having me. I think what I would say about it's not been easy to talk about some of the stuff that I've spoken about today. I'm very mindful that it's very permanently captured on a podcast, but I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world if I talked about the importance of being open and vulnerable and honest and authentic and didn't try to help people feel confident to talk openly about the stuff that's going on with them yeah so I've tried to do that today no, it's great.
Nic Elliott:Thank you so much. Thanks, jan. Thanks for listening to this episode of the hrd talks podcast. Hopefully you found the discussion helpful. If so, please follow us on your podcast provider to be notified of future episodes and share with friends and colleagues. For more information on the podcast, please visit actonscouk. Forward slash the HRD talks.
